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  Wednesday, 21 September 2016
  20 Replies
  293 Visits

I think this the perfect fit for us (VBA)
I also believe it's worth 1k
Can we get an executive coram group together to

I hope this gets to them ASAP to show them our support

Mike Willard we need you behind this endeavor.

David Prior
5 years ago
Exactly Garett. Used to be that the apiary maps were open if you asked the inspector. We always used them to locate new apiaries. No one commercial wants to move in on another commercial beekeeper. Well, almost no-one. :) But seriously, we're trying but blocked from doing so.

The old inspector still has the hard copy maps Mike. You old timers probably have his home # and can call him up. The state is starting from scratch with info from registrations. It will be a bit more time before the virtual map is complete but will be easy as pie to find good locations once it's complete without seeing actual location of surrounding yards.

Hearther- It's true personal land is exempt from the commercial restriction but for those that register hives and care how close their hives are to others there needs to be a means to know if any are near where you want to put a yard. a 2 mile radius is a LOT of land and not exacting at all for vandals and thieves. In m experience, derelicts don't have the energy to do exstensive searches let alone miles of hiking.

Pollination is a vital service. Sure it spreads disease and all the more reason to have easy access to better place your yards. Pollinator or not, if there is a problem in a nearby commercial size yard it will be in your yard soon.

Peter- I'm not a long time VBA member so my opinion should't weigh much at all. I don't think UVM Beekeeping is a good place to invest funds. The reasoning is first, they have no stated plans of any kind of scientific research. It's a group of kids that want to keep bees at this point and as stated they are not in school during the season. Secondly there is a lot of research being done, not all of it is valid or useful. Case in point is the most funded research group does nothing more than phone 10 to 20 large scale pollinating bee keepers and ask how many hives, how many loses this year? That data is then put in a Google or Microsoft spread sheet and shown in graph form over the course of years it's been funded (since 2005?). Not exactly high intellect scientific service going on for the gross amount of funds given. Obviously a Senator's son or such and this is the information source for News and colony collapse panic. My point being is unless they have a plan and what is deemed by VBA to be a worth while venture of research it's just throwing away money.

Distribution/extraction center(s) are more to my train of thought. Non profit of course. Co-op with VBA label for distribution. Hmm... Top dollar and standardized to promote a product- The Best Honey In The World! Something like that would take years to develop but could be worth while. Commercial (atual 1000's hive keepers) would be needed to keep supplies up so too could reap a higher return. Might need a barrel/ton cap per apiary but by no means an exclusive venture.
5 years ago
OK.........Here's my 10 cents...... since we're off topic and no longer discussing UVN Bee Club..........

Regarding where are our hives are located, numbers, etc................again, I'm old school.....Not for me, Buddy. Whatever happened to walking up and talking to someone?????? I think how many hives I have and where they are is MY business. I choose to locate my colonies on my own land, due to vandalism and theft concerns which have occurred in our area.....But I'll be neighborly to a point if you talk to me.

. While technically a sideliner, maintaining around 30 colonies, I am still subject to the "if you own your own land, you can put as many hives on your property as you would like" exception to the commercial rule.. I had the perfect isolated mating yard set to go as I expended........ until a flatlander with 1 year with 4 colonies experience went out and brought 50 colonies onto HIS land .................without the benefit of any decent forage on his own land....3/4 of a mile away from mine.......thus ruining my chances of the most perfect new nuc nursery and mating yard I had been working towards on my own land. My only hope to put bees up there now without his hordes of desperate bees robbing them out is that he'll have such an awful year that he'll quit the bee business...which I highly doubt will happen.....and honestly, I don't wish him ill will...he's a very nice man...but my point is.......these things have the potential to happen because neither of us own the whole town and no regulations prohibiting it........... but it's better to deal with things face to face. He's losing bees and should've never bought so many..........

Sorry to you big boys but the world is not your oyster..........admittedly, it isn't mine either.... but I think here ought to be some sort of rational oversight if there is to be any at all. All this digital technology just makes things a free for all for those who have time to nitpick and play the angles/loopholes....and pushes those of us who have major investments and minor returns right on out of the bee business.

Since we're talking government involvement, I'd personally prefer if there were more restrictions on migratory beekeepers who roll on in and persistently ruin a neighborhood (i.e. much of the Upper Valley) with imported pests in large numbers only to head back south every year for another helping.. The science is there to prove how bad interstate transport back and forth is for Vermont's bees.

So that's my 10 cents, a bit convaluted but hopefully some can follow my train of thought.....I vote no to map sharing.
5 years ago
Exactly Garett. Used to be that the apiary maps were open if you asked the inspector. We always used them to locate new apiaries. No one commercial wants to move in on another commercial beekeeper. Well, almost no-one. :) But seriously, we're trying but blocked from doing so.
Sounds very logical to me ,as you said is in no way gives details or violates privacy.
With to days technology it would be very easy for the state to install in their system and
Free up the states staff for other tasks .
I think the state is working toward new improved technology but they are a long way from
It at this time.
As you know you can't even register your hives with the state on line,must download and
Print a form and mail in .
I like your comments.
5 years ago
What I'm saying is the information is available but it takes time awaiting the response from AG. Dept. and takes time out of the State Inspectors day to be the mediary of needed information. The bottom line is the information one needs is there and it has to be given or the rules of hive numbers can not be enforced. The information is given freely for this reason but it takes time, took three weeks and two emails for me to get the info.

The minor programing needed would only take a few hours and we'd all have instant access to annually changing data forever.

Privacy is not violated as no names nor specific locations are given. Number of registered yards (and any commercial) would be provided on the 2 mile radius of given coordinates. That's 12.5 square miles of area, not exacting by any means. Multiple searches can be conducted in short order so beekeepers can locate their yards in non commercial violating locations. No yard of more than ten hives can be located withing 2 miles of an existing commercial yard (15 or more hives). A person can also with purpose isolate a yard in hopes to protect it from others disease and pests by doing multiple searches to find a perspective oasis to instal a yard.

The information is invaluable. It's already attainable but takes time and persistence to obtain and at the expense of state inspectors time. Without information access a person could not be forced to move a yard due to violating commercial yard space. Think about that- if a person was not given information of yards in 2 mile radius and installed a 30 hive yard then was told when paying to register and allowing inspection he was in violation of commercial yard space and had to move. How exactly would that be enforced if the information needed to stay in regulations was withheld? The fact is it is not withheld. It merely needs to be more readily attainable.
5 years ago
Of course we don't know specifics. these would be have to be known on the one and a half mile radius to benefit any of us. And as a few of us have voiced the helpfulness of seeing a specific map of yards etc... we've been stonewalled for years.

On the topic of knowing what yards are near your location(s) I was talking to a a friend at the Dept. of Ag. and voicing this same problem. Due to privacy and protecting peoples property there can't be a map available to the public of yards state wide but there could be location specific information that wouldn't be difficult to program on their website.

For example I wanted to know if any commercial yards (15 or more hives) were within 2 mile radius of two prospective locations I want more than ten hives in. To get this info one has to email the state beekeeper to have them look it up on the virtual map and email you back. What I proposed to my IT friend is a search option on the web were coordinates can be entered and it would instantly spit back number of registered bee yards and if any are commercial size in the 2 mile radius of coordinates. He and I both felt that still retained privacy and made the information needed by expanding or relocating beekeepers readily available. All registered yards that have been visited by inspector have coordinates on a virtual map already so it's a simple bit of programing to give us access without actually showing locations.
5 years ago
Boy that sounds very unfriendly... people wanting to see our bees dead!
I guess I don't hear much about thefts or vandalism carried out by people. Bears yes ;) but if something like (theft and vandalism) were happening. I would think it would be shared around very quickly (I would hope).
1 incident this year involving the theft of nukes was the first that I'd heard here in Vermont.
I guess what I'm getting at is knowing where these hives are, could outweigh the cons.

For the people that are not registering their hives does nothing to help us. I want to give everybody the benefit of the doubt I think there should be an article written in the Burlington Free Press and possibly on the TV that this is to help us all protect our fragile bee population and it's the law.
Out of the 1353 registration slips sent out by the state only 792 have come back good (paying the reg fees) leaving 561 either no longer keep bees or have refused to register and pay. I know that the 9873 hives here in VT the majority of these are held my backyard folks with only a couple of hives, which brings me to think that 99% of these folks have there hives right on their property, telling me a large majority of the others are selling with contact information.
So I think the coin phrased "if you see something say something" might apply here to protect us and our Fragile bee population say nothing of all time and effort establishing our love for this very beneficial tiny insect.

I hope the driver of the bulldozer didn't have a veil on ;)

Maybe we should contact other state Beekeepers Association is to see if there's been an uptick in vandalism and theft since they started advertising it on the internet
Thank you all for reading all my rants, I only have a few more things to get off my chest ;)
Con's of map
We have today a lot of unfriendly people for one thing that would like to see yours and my bees dead.
We have a lot of theft a detailed map with address would be a home run for them.
We also have a huge gap in regerteraregteration of hives I would guess more then 50%
Of the hives in Vermont are not registered,with that said the people you need to know about
Would not be on the map to begin with.
Just my thoughts

Also selling honey most of the time you use your home address not the locations of your bee
As to bad things a few years ago Mike P had a yard not fare from me ,off the road
Some one took a truck and bulldozed a bunch of his hives that cost him a lot of money.

So truly having a detailed map the public can see I think is a bad idea.
Plus if you take Googl satellite map you can check your area for hives , sad to say the power
Of to days technology can be dangerous
5 years ago
Thank you Ron
I think there's a point here to be made thou those of us selling honey have to follow a requirement of contact information on our labels. So I think those of us that get to this point probably have a good handle on how to raise our bees. I can foresee the problem of maybe backyard beekeepers having only one or two hives that don't have the experience to recognize disease which could jeopardize many of us with multiple hives as sideliners.
I have as well as Mike P have voiced having this information so that if we see an area that does not have forgers we could search out a landowner, instead of the leg work of finding a perfect spot only to find out there are 3 yards within a mile of our new found spot.
I know several states right now I can go on line and see exactly where hives are and who owns them.

A good example is that I've been talking about having small hive beetle problem if I knew it was a new beekeeper within range I could go over and have a talk maybe even help out before it got to this point
I personally am proud to keep bees and I know all my neighbors enjoy having them close by
What are some of the cons of the public knowing I'm keeping bees ?
Thank you Ron for all your kind words and insight, your post are all great reminders to all of us with our busy schedules
David as always you make some great points it's very clear when it comes to the Honey Bee
You are very passionate and for sure your hearts in the right place.
As to UVM years ago they ran bee program and had extinction serve agents.
As time changed as with all of agercaluture things faded away, now in recent years the cry
To save the bees things are turning more interest around the world to save the Bees
I'm sure based on Michael Willards statement VBA talked with the UVM bee group and VBA has not Heard back from them.
They have a fund raiser program in place ,now thanks to you and other VBA members this program is being Shared across the social media I think in the next week or so we will see a great increase
To the donation for this club.
As to a map of Apiary's at our summer meeting Dave our state inspector showed a map of
Of Apiary's that showed the Champlain Valley with the highest concentration of registered
Hives . I would my self feel it to be a bad idea to have a detailed map made public. I know
I would not want my hives and address made public.
I'm sure the studies that have been going on for the past two years will in the long run be very
Worth while to all of us and may help world wide.
Three years ago UVM did a study on planting clover to increase foraging on farm land with the help
Of VBA and VBA members .
As to VBA money I hope we can wisely spend some toward some great out reach programs
And education programs.
I also hope UVM will get a bee program going again .
5 years ago
I guess when I joined VBA my expectations for compensation were the Helpful guidance of others in the club which have been positive experiences and hopefully being able giving back as much or more

6 thousand dollars just as start, to fund National Honeybee research project (NHRP) this was to a student at UVM to map parasites, diseases, pests, the lack of forage & rolls flowers play in transmission of disease and pest transmission and more.
I'm interested in seeing how this is going to benefit us at the local level.... we as Vermont beekeepers. We know we have pest we know we have diseases because our state tells us so. Of course we don't know specifics. these would be have to be known on the one and a half mile radius to benefit any of us. And as a few of us have voiced the helpfulness of seeing a specific map of yards etc... we've been stonewalled for years.
So the NHRP project could most likely be done in a lab. Except maybe the making of a forage, flower map. Because specifics cannot be shared being they are anonymous I fail to see how this will benefit us locally.
One of Samantha's goal as stated is to hopefully get UVM interested in bee research and I would say that that would go hand-in-hand with a club in their goals that they have expressed in getting more of the college involved.
5 years ago
Heather, I like your two cents.

As I said on Face book earlier this week, I feel VBA should not fund UVM Beekeepers Club, VBA does not fund any other beekeepers club in Vermont just provide administrative advice, guidance and not a philanthropic organization. If we fund UVM beekeepers club then why not fund other groups that wants to start a beekeepers club. VBA board and association members provide hundred of hours to help education, provide guidance, lecture time and travel with out compensation, not even for gas money.
5 years ago
My two cents............

The largest gift currently possessed by The Vermont Beekeeper's Association is knowledge.(....in my humble opinion.) We all know that bees can do pretty well on their own and nice boxes and jackets are pretty easy to come by.......but new beekeepers always need more knowledge first and foremost.

I'm old school. I truly believe that kids need to stop asking for handouts. I also think that 99 % of grownups need to resist throwing money around whenever a young person wants something. In my day, we WORKED for what we wanted and WAITED for our rewards to be EARNED.

So.....I think the best support that could be donated by the VBA to this UVM Bee Club ought to be educational......not capital. Perhaps the offering of presentations, workshops, internships???

Incidentally, if anyone wants to donate to a friendly local beekeeper........I'll gladly send you my address and I'll definitely spend it on my bees.
Lot of great points and questions to this UVM BeeClub.
David mentioned the UVM dairy and equestrian program I think the programs are part of UVM
And have paid staff that over see the programs.
So my question is will this club be part of UVM programs and is UVM going to get back into
Honey Bee research? Regardless of what they do I think this would be a worth while program
If set up right , but I would also like to see a exit plan if it is disbanded or fails.

5 years ago
This is good.... now I'm hopefull that some of them have joined VBA and can see this and will have some insight to share with us or this could also give them some more food for thought
I can't imagine they haven't thought about some of these points and how to deal with them.
I'm curious... how does UVM's equestrian and dairy programs operate throughout the summer months I would think these programs would be plagued with some of the same dilemmas.
Maybe they will find a small farming operation off campus and work in conjunction with them.
I'm thinking that some of us could certainly provide some guidance in this whole process.
It also looks as though they have reached out to Scott Wilson.
5 years ago
Not to be a wet blanket but I'm wondering how such a club would work. When students come back to school in late August the bee season here is winding down - not a lot of beekeeping to do before winter. Then in May when the hives are just getting going, school ends and everyone goes home. Who manages the bees through the peak season? Also, I'd like to see them have some skin in the game. Set up a hive or two, buy yourself a jacket and a smoker and a hive tool, read a few books and see how you do. Then you can ask for funding because you have a little bit of bee credit. I think just handing someone a pile of cash because they think they'd like to try something is counterproductive. They have already raised enough money to get started. Get some wooden ware and frames this winter and order a couple of nucs or packages. Buy a few veils and attend some bee club meetings. When spring comes, I'm sure that there are people that will help them get going. That's my recommendation.
5 years ago
It looks like they did reach out to Mike Palmer as he spoke to them in March:

Looks like the at least started to make a beeyard:

And they have a Facebook page, which is more than I do:

And yes, they can certainly find a way to spend $6.5k, but getting the equipment and bees is one thing, but I would also know how they are planning to maintain hives over the Summer. That is a challenge other colleges clubs face, they have to have at least one member every year who will be in the area during the Summer and has the time and skill to maintain the hives. The club can go along great for several years, but if they hit a point where their more dedicated bee wranglers graduate and nobody is left to care for the bees then what happens? Do I or Bill Mares get a frantic phone call in May looking for help? Do they just walk away and hope for the best? Will their faculty adviser step in? There is also the question if there was one or two students working the hives all Summer, they may, not unreasonably, wonder if they they should get a cut of the honey $ as they did 90% of the real work. Again, perhaps they have a plan for that, but I want to hear it. I am not saying that the worse will happen, but I want to see if they have thought these things out.

When I was at UVM I was part of the Science Fiction and Fantasy program at the Living and Learning dorm. It had existed in one form or another for decades and had a about 4 double sided book shelves of books that could be battened down and put into storage each Summer. Several years after I left, the program fizzled out and disappeared for a few years. It eventually was reestablished with a fresh batch of students. But when they went looking for those books they could not be found. Nobody knew what happened to those books.

I am also curious as to how they will keep the club members engaged through the long Winter., besides hopefully coming to our Winter meeting :) Lectures and work shops might help. I can also imagine that perhaps some of them might try their hand at building their own hive and nuc boxes to help nurture a sense "ownership" and reduce capital costs. In some ways if the club overall started small, a few hives and double nucs to over winter, and built up over a few seasons from that, the club would be more likely to develop a culture of ownership and responsibility for those hives rather than if 10 or so were dropped in their laps. But that is just a thought from me.

I will step back and let other VBA members chime in. While I think that starting communication with them can happen soon, I disagree that we have to act fast. The season is just about over. Even if they had a check in their hands today there is nothing they really could do with the money now that they could not do in the Spring. Perhaps they could be told that they would be welcome at the VBA Winter meeting, and if they are still looking for significant funds for their club at that time, they could make a presentation to the whole VBA membership present there, and the whole membership could then vote on it.
5 years ago
Oh and when giving the money it is earmarked specific to the UVM Beekeeping Club 100 % through the director of Annual Giving UVM Foundation - Kevin Morgenstein Fuerst.
UVM Foundation & Alumni Association
411 Main St.
Burlington, VT 0401
5 years ago
All very good points Brennan.
I know they started planning this before our winter meeting because I spoke with them and I also pointed out Mike Palmer and Mike Willard so I'm hoping they might be able to fill in a few of your answers and maybe Bill Mares has some insight.
Just off the top of my head I'm thinking about, what 400-500$ for a complete hive with hopefully a local nuc. Multiply that say by 5 looks close to 2500. You double that 5k. That would be for 10 hives. Then an extractor, tools, jackets, books, feeders and maybe, hopefully queen rearing setup all that stuff adds up fast.
My son is a senior at UVM and has spoken to them and offered my help in whatever questions they may have to help them along.
I'm sure they are more than willing to go to a VBA board meeting to discuss or share their ideas.
I just threw this out here to hopefully get some conversation started now
5 years ago
Interesting. I would be interested in learning more about the club (who is their mentor, are they a Living and Learning program, how many members, how many of them have actually worked bees, etc) and how exactly they are planning to spend six thousand dollars. Bee keeping is capital intensive to start up, but that seems like a lot of money. I would like to know it would be well spent and not find its way to fund a kegger (or a meader given its a bee club).

I am a UVM alum and live in Burlington, so I can meet with them if people would like these and other questions answered before we discuss writing a check to a club sight unseen.
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